But CCF is right? CCF who asks tithes from its members yet teaching their members also that the 10 commandments has been done away. I’ll just post my QUICK answer because the last time.i remember DOCTOR obidos blocked me immediately after rebutting his answer on the topic that the sabbath in exodus 20:8-11 is not Saturday posted in his founded FELLOWSHIP, the “former adventist fellowship”So there might be some points he stated that I might miss to response.
OBIDOS:
CCF didn’t claim anything that their church alone is the true church. The SDA concept of the church is distorted and inherited from the Roman Catholic church who alone believes that the true church applies to the visible church no the invisible/universal church. They are not bragging or proud of the glory of their organization, unlike the SDAs who always proud of their corrupted organization.
CCF is consistently proud only of Christ. CCF uplifts Christ as our personal Lord and Savior nothing else. The tithes system in CCF is more consistent and practiced in the light of the New Testament, unlike the SDA. The same principle with the Sabbath, CCF believe in the Sabbath in the light of the New Testament, unlike the SDA. SDA is a man-made organization centered, CCF is Christ-centered Christians. This spirit of pride is present in this aspiring SDA defender. He thinks bigger than he thought. He is like a fly standing at the back of a carabao and thinking that he is now bigger than the carabao. He brags as if I am evading or afraid of him. He should also consider why I blocked him in the first place because he thinks he knows what he is saying so for me he is just a waste of time. I’m still waiting for an Adventist apologist who can intelligently engage with me on the issues that I raised up. Not a second class aspirant who can even find it difficult to construct his statement properly in English and still feels victory is on his side. Many readers messaged me that I better look for someone else and not waste my time with someone who cannot even refute my formal arguments and pieces of evidence. I seem to me that this man doesn’t know much about how to carefully and analyze my proofs.May I ask the SDAs, if they will accept Mr. Dreevant as an authority to best represent the SDA beliefs and as their official defender considering the quality of his arguments? Honesty is required here.
DREEVANT:
The question was “who’s the TRUE church”, yet DOCTOR Obidos went on saying Christ is the TRUTH, i think he is confused about the difference of the word TRUTH from TRUE, so his answer was really irrelevant. The Adventist church is the TRUE Church and it has the TRUTH which is Jesus Christ and the bible.
OBIDOS:
The argument used here is a carbon copy from Mr. Israel Villaver. Who do you think is the original? Dreevant or Villaver? Anyway, what is important now is that I already refuted this surface-level argument last time in my response to Mr. Villaver[i]. But for the sake of my readers who are new here, I will quote some relevant points here.
“Kahit magkaiba ang “TRUE” at “TRUTH” ay related words pa din silang dalawa at hindi nagkakalayo. Ang word na “Truth” ay noun at ang word na “True” naman ay adjective.
Ang talagang essential issue dito ay hindi yung pagkakaiba ng dalawang salita kundi kung alin sa mababasa sa Bible. Ipinagmamalaki ng mga SDA na sila daw ang tunay na tagapagmana ng 16th century Protestant Reformers. Kung gayon bakit hindi namana ng SDA ang isa sa pinakamahalagang prinsipyo nito laban sa Iglesia Katolika? Ito ay ang Sola Scriptura! Kung gagamitin natin ang Sola Scriptura o Bible alone, ito ang mas mahalagang tanong:
Alin sa dalawang pangungusap ang mababasa sa Biblia?
a.) SDA church ang TRUE CHURCH? o
b.) JESUS is the TRUTH?
Obvious ang sagot dito na mas biblical ang “Jesus is the truth” kasi mababasa ito sa John 14:6 samantalang ang “SDA church ang TRUE CHURCH” ay wishful thinking lang ng mga SDA kaya hindi mababasa sa Biblia! Actually, sa sulat lamang ni Ellen White mababasa na ang SDA ang true church hindi sa Biblia!
Mas makabuluhan ito kaysa sa technical na pagkakaiba ng “True” at “Truth” ni Mr. Villaver na hindi naman yan ang talagang issue na binangon ko. Kung nagtyaga lamang sana si Mr. Villaver na basahin ang buong article ko at konteksto nito hindi sana siya magiging mababaw. Ito po ang konteksto ng aking argumento:
“Ano ang mahalagang isyu sa New Testament kung hindi pala kilala noon ang SDA church at si Ellen White? Ano ang KATOTOHANAN (Truth) na may kinalaman sa kaligtasan ng mga makasalanan? Ito ba ay ang pagiging TOTOO(TRUE) ng relihion o denominasyon? Ayon sa New Testament, saan natin makikita ang katotohanan? Sa pag anib ba sa relihion o denominasyon? O personal na relasyon sa ating Panginoong Jesus?” [i]
Kaya mas naging malinaw ngayon ang sagot ko sa tanong doon sa nakaraan article ko dahil sinaalang-alang natin ang konteksto:
Tanong: “Kung hindi SDA ang tunay, eh ano?” (Non-Biblical)
Sagot: Hindi tunay ang SDA si Jesus lang ang Truth (Biblical, John 14:6)”
#1. DREEVANT:
1.DOCTOR Obidos stated that Proverbs 29:18 is a FAVORITE VERSE of the Adventists, but after quoting the number 18 fundamental belief HE FAILED TO SHOW that Proverbs 29:18 is a FAVORITE VERSE of the Adventist, so I’ll just assume that it’s just his preconceived idea circling in his own mind.
OBIDOS:
This is the reason why I need to filter out the articles that I need to respond to because there are some arguments like these that I think will only waste my time. For me, this kind of thinking reflects the level of intelligence this person has. I prefer to engage a written conversation or debate with someone who is well versed or who is a wide reader theologian than someone who didn’t care at all. Anyway, for the sake of truth, I want to show you how important Proverbs 29:18 is even to the Adventist alleged prophet, Mrs. White. I refer the reader to one of the recent authoritative reference book published by several knowledgeable SDA theologians, The Ellen White Encyclopedia, to show how significant Proverbs 29:18 is in support of the prophetic ministry of Ellen G. White:
“Those Adventists who eventually change sides “will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God’s Spirit” (Selected Messages, 3:84; Last Day Events, 177). In support, Ellen White cites Proverbs 29:18: “Where there is no vision, the people perish.” Having lost confidence in God’s guidance through the last-day manifestation of the gift of prophecy, they are prepared to distrust also the testimony of Scripture itself, causing them to be deceived by the final deception that Satan brings on the world.[ii]”
#2. DREEVANT:
- DOCTOR Obidos just PUBLISHED this article, yet DOCTOR Obidos said that there are more than 18 million members of sda worldwide, thus DOCTOR Obidos is making/ implying it as 18-19 million as he started at 18 million as a point of beginning for counting, did DOCTOR Obidos tried to confuse the actual number of SDA to his personal and self-made estimation of Adventist’s number today? Adventist members today is more than 22 million, DOCTOR Obidos has to be accurate in his self-ESTIMATION of the sda members, before ridiculing the sda church!
OBIDOS:
Another non-sense here. I should say he has a POINT——POINT-LESS!
#3. DREEVANT:
- DOCTOR Obidos rediculed the Adventist faith defenders in the Philippines as very weak in English, slow in understamding english sentences, thus mocking the sda defenders, is he then trying to say that he’s better than them? Why can’t he challenge the filipino sda professors in AIIAS?
1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; DOCTOR Obidos did not continue the debate with an American or maybe an english speaking man Edwin Cotto, for what reason i don’t know, but as what his article is trying to imply, DOCTOR Obidos is good in English based on his statement.
OBIDOS:
I am quoting his 3rd point per se as it is without correcting anything as I used to do to see for yourself if I’m just accusing him about his use of English. Your readers will be the judge. I think of one appropriate verse here for this aspiring defender.
John 3:12 (NIV) “I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?”
My supposed debate with Edwin Cotto didn’t for he couldn’t make up his mind. We both agreed to discuss Hebrews 4:9 but eventually changed his mind by offering me a variety of topics instead so I take it as revocation on his side.
My English is not perfect but I try to make my writings presentable and professional as well. My main issue with most of the SDA aspiring defenders is not about their ability to write or speak English, but more on the reading comprehension. Most of them find it hard to understand reading and studying books in English so they preferred Tagalog. This is, for me, the main reason why some media ministry layman around seems to ignore my articles esp. in English.
#4. DREEVANT:
- DOCTOR Obidos then went on saying that the more than 18 million Adventist (as his own ESTIMATED PRESUMPTION) do not fully believe in Mrs. White, thus nullifying the SDA fundamental belief num 18. , did he mentioned this to redicule (sic) the SDA church or just to show off? When Saul was converted the disciples did not believe in him!
Acts 9:26 And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and BELIEVED NOT that he was a disciple. This verse tells us, that in the 1st century those who do not believe a certain Apostle has been existing!
OBIDOS:
Another display of ignorance here. Indeed, some of the early disciples did not accept Paul when he came to Jerusalem at that time, since Paul was just 3 years as a believer since he was converted by the Lord Jesus on his way to Damascus. Galatians 1:17-18 says:
Galatians 1:17-18 (NIV)
“I did not go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went into Arabia. Later I returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days.”
It is reasonable then to understand why some of the disciples did not believe him but eventually Christians everywhere began to accept him as a true believer and apostle of Christ. This is different in the case of Ellen White. It was more than 160 years since Mrs. White’s ministry till today many SDAs still questioned her validity as a true prophet ranging from the members up to the SDA leadership to both theologians and scholars. So this aspiring SDA defenders argument end up as non-sense at all!
OBIDOS:
Yes, it’s official but does not guarantee that this is true. SDA themselves are not unified. This only shows that the SDA Fundamental Belief far short of the necessary evidence to back up its claim.
DREEVANT:
I think only DOCTOR Obidos is confused or trying to confuse it, we SDA’s do not deny that there are very few who does not believe in Mrs. White, as in Matthew 13 there are tares among the wheat and we praise God that one of those tares has been revealed and is now The author of this article i am replying at.
OBIDOS:
Granting that those who don’t believe in Ellen White belong to the “Tares” side, the question is will they be saved because they reject Mrs. White? If NO, then belief in the name of Ellen White will become an essential element of salvation which is against the Scriptures for this will add another name besides the one and only name that was given to us for our salvation:
Acts 4:12 (NIV) “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Only in the name of Jesus Christ, we can salvation. Jesus is enough for us. We don’t need to add another name beside him including Ellen White.
Now if his answer is YES, then whether an SDA believes in Ellen White or not he can still enter the kingdom of God regardless of his/her view. That makes belief in Ellen White as NON-ESSENTIAL to salvation. So those who belong to the “Tares” that reject Ellen White will have the chance to be saved as well. So what’s the point of using this parable of the wheat and tares here?
#5. DREEVANT:
- DOCTOR Obidos said “mas kilala as CHRISTIANS” quoting Acts 11:26, is DOCTOR Obidos committing a blunder here? Where in the verse does it say MAS KILALA AS CHRISTIANS, or where in the bible does it say MAS KILALA BILANG CHRISTIANS? How many times does the NEW testament used the word CHRISTIANS DOCTOR OBIDOS?
OBIDOS:
Another stupid challenge, but I have no choice but to answer in order to demonstrate how far this aspiring Adventist defender’s ignorance is when it comes to Christian history. I will quote Acts 11:26 again:
Acts 11:26 (NIV) “The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”
Here is an additional insight from The SDA Bible Dictionary:
“The term Christianos as found in the Greek NT has a Latin ending, for in Greek it should be Christianeios. It has therefore been suggested that this should be taken as an indication that the term was coined originally by a Roman official. In the time of Nero, Christians were known in Rome by the name Chrestianoi (Tacitus, Ann., XV. 44; and others)[iii].”
The Bible itself did not say anything about the historical background of the name Christian. In this case, we need to resort to outside the Bible reference like history. That why we use the SDA Bible Dictionary. The said dictionary answered the question raised by this aspiring defender regarding the popularity of this name. It says that the “Christians were known in Rome by the name Chrestianoi” and it was allegedly coined originally by a Roman official. As regards the question about how often the term Christians were used in the New Testament, this term appears 3x in the New Testament. One in the quoted verse in Acts 11:26 and the other two here:
Acts 26:28 (NIV) “Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
1 Peter 4:16 (NIV) “However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.”
The point I like to drive is that the followers of Jesus are well known by the name Christians, though, originally a derogatory name eventually regarded as a praiseworthy term among Christians. For this reason, I will be more happy and proud to be called a Christian rather than an Adventist.
DREEVANT:
He said they are not ADVENTIST, did DOCTOR Obidos forgets the meaning of the word ADVENTIST?, it means people waiting for the advent of Christ, were the apostles and disciples of Christ waited for his second advent or did not?
OBIDOS:
Does this aspiring SDA defender imply that those followers of Jesus who were called Christians are not waiting for the second advent of Christ? And the believers have to wait until 1844 to be called true believers of the second coming of Christ because they adopted the name Adventist? How absurd this reasoning is!
#6. DREEVANT
- DOCTOR Obidos said Seventh-day Adventist is not known in the 1st century,where in the books of SDA’s did we ever claimed that we are known in the first century?
OBIDOS:
This is the reason why I think the SDA should stop boasting that they are the only true church on the earth today. It is easy to claim it and its impossible to prove it. The SDA church is divided in many core issues. You’re just one among thousands of churches who claim it. SDA church is a modern American denomination founded by a false prophet[iv] therefore the SDA church that she founded is false.
DREEVANT:
It is again a preconceived personal idea of DOCTOR Obidos, Adventist clearly teaches and believes that we are the remnant of the true church founded by Christ in the first century, the remnant which will show after the 1260 days/ years, therefore you cannot say that we are known in the 1st century because we believe to be at the end time not in the 1st century.
OBIDOS:
There is no such thing as “the remnant church” in the Bible. I challenged all the SDA defenders to give me a supporting verse that mentions about the Remnant Church. Either your claim SDA as the end-time church or not still this argument is shallow and produces more questions than answer. One question is the fact that the SDA teaches that the identity and the belief of the remnant are identical, therefore, it is only reasonable for me to demand or ask which particular verse in the Bible where it says that this term applies to the Seventh-day Adventist alone! SDA scholars and theologians are divided on the true identity of the remnant. Therefore, you don’t any basis to be proud of it.
#7. DREEVANT
- DOCTOR Obidos said, “kapag iglesia tumutukoy ito sa mananampalataya, hindi sa simbahan…”again DOCTOR Obidos committed a blunder here, did he forgot that the “Filipino” equivalemt for iglesia is SIMBAHAN?.. is he trying to hide the adventist’s belief that the “church, iglesia, simbahan” are the believers? Again this is a lie from DOCTOR Obidos.
OBIDOS:
Another stupid blunder! Why resort to Filipino definition? Is the New Testament originally written in Filipino or Tagalog? I have no question about the Filipino term. This is outside the Bible definition based on culture or tradition. You cannot use the modern-day definition to define a term that was originally used in Greek! In Greek it is ekklesia, meaning “called-out ones” that refers to people than the church building or denomination. This is the common problem among the SDAs, they think of the SDA denomination is the true church that they cannot find support from the Scriptures.
#8. DREEVANT:
8.DOCTOR obidos said, “hindi kilala sa new testament si mrs ellen white”, DOCTOR obidos, when did we ever claimed that mrs white was known in the new testament or in the 1st century? Have you forgotten that mrs. White was born in 1827 and not in the 1st century?, were the 4 virgin DAUGHTERS of Philip (acts21:9) ever known in the new testament? What are their names? What are the things they prophesied? Isn’t it true that God’s church has a gift of prophecy or has a gift of prophet (eph 4:10-11)? Isn’t it true that the bible says despise not prophesying but test all things (1 thes 5)? So therefore there’s a prophet in the true church.
OBIDOS:
Another non-sense question, “were the 4 virgin DAUGHTERS of Philip (acts21:9) ever known in the new testament?” The SDA Bible Commentary says “These women had the gift of prophecy”[v] and anyone who has this gift is well known in the New Testament times because this prophetic gift is presented in public the same as Ellen White did in her time so she was well known back then.
1 Corinthians 14:3 (NIV) “But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.”
1 Corinthians 14:5 (NIV) “I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.”
Although the names of these four virgins were not given in the New Testament it does not mean they were not known. The fact that their father’s name, Philip, was mentioned it logically follows that the people during that time knows something about his four daughters. Compared to Ellen White, not even her ancestors were known at that time. Therefore, this aspiring apologist, I may say, lacks common sense in this regard.
#9. DREEVANT:
- DOCTOR obidos said, “si JESUS LANG ang truth” , my question, is God’s word false and is not “TRUTH”? Where in the bible did Jesus said “ako LANG ang truth”? Is the FATHER not “truth”? Is the holy Spirit not “truth”? Is the doctrine of God instated in the bible not “truth”?
OBIDOS:
This aspiring SDA defender shows that he is confused again. He missed again the context of what I mean when I said that “si Jesus lang ang TRUTH.” Sabi nga sa tagalog “Pilosopong Pulpol!” ang tawag sa ganitong napakababaw na argumento. Nakakabobo at bhindi anakakatulong. If we will follow his foolish line of argument, it will come out that it is Jesus himself that is the one to be blamed not me! Why? Because Jesus himself claimed that statement, “I AM THE TRUTH!” not “I am A TRUTH!” The definite article implies identity in particular.[vi] Jesus is only the truth when it comes to the salvation of men. But if we discuss God the Father and the Holy Spirit, definitely there is an inherent truth about these doctrines in general. So this aspiring SDA defender is all mixed up in his thinking.
#10. DREEVANT:
- What do adventist believe about its 28 FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS DOCTOR obidos.? Wjat does 28 fundamental beliefs mean for sda?
OBIDOS:
For your information, here I quote the main purpose why SDAs published their own Fundamental Beliefs as explained by Wikipedia:
“The 28 fundamental beliefs are the core beliefs of Seventh-day Adventist theology. Adventists are opposed to the formulation of creeds, so the 28 fundamental beliefs are considered descriptors, not prescriptors; that is, that they describe the official position of the church but are not criteria for membership…The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary is a significant expression of Adventist theological thought.[vii]”
#11. DREEVANT
- Doctor obidos failed to answer the question propelled to him in his self made article, instead he went on attacking mrs white and the filipino sda debaters here in the philippines, all his qouted writings of mrs white I fully agree, I just don’t agree with DOCTOR obidos’s interpretation of the qoutes he qouted. He misinterpreted things from sda just to fit in his preconcieved ideas.
OBIDOS:
Well, another display of bankruptcy and weakness here! This is not the kind of intelligent engagement that I’m looking for. This is not an intellectual response but rather a denial or ignorance. He didn’t justify or demonstrate here why my interpretation of Mrs. White’s writings is wrong. He just expressed his subjective opinion without supporting evidence. Typical Adventist thinking it is!
#12. DREEVANT:
- DOCTOR obidos said, Jesus Christ is the prophet in the last days, is he in his right during writing these? Using hebrews 1:1-3, which is referring to his coking hhere o earth in the 1st century A.D., DOCTOR obidos, are you saying that one of the gift of the Holy Spirit which is prophet is not true and that The Holy Spirit did not bestow a gift of being a prophet because Christ is the Prophet of the Last days? Where in the bible that Christ woild become the prophet in the last days right after his ascension in heaven? Are you saying that when John wrote
Were these prophets which are thw brethren of john false prophets.? Is the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the church and one of those is having a Prophet now a null and void gift because Christ is the prophet as you’ve mentioned? Where is it in the bible that Christ would be the only prophet in these last days?
OBIDOS:
These issues are addressed in Part 1 of our interaction, “A Short Q&A Session with an Aspiring Adventist Defender”[viii]. I refer the reader to read this previous article. There is no need for me to repeat my answer here, it’s just a waste of time.
#13. DREEVANT:
- The question propelled to DOCTOR obidos was who’s the TRUE church, yet DOCTOR obidos went on saying Christ is the TRUTH, i think he is confused about the difference of the word TRUTH from TRUE, so his answer was really irrelevant. The Adventist church is the TRUE Church and it has the TRUTH which is Jesus Christ and the bible.
OBIDOS:
Another repetition. I refer the readers to my response to this non-sense titled, “True is not the Truth”: Reaction sa Wishful Thinking ni Israel Villaver at mga Die Hard SDA!”[ix]
#14. DREEVANT:
- The belief remains STANDING, We firmly believe that mrs white was a prophet gifted by God for the remnant in rev 12:17 which is a COMMANDMENT-KEEPING PEOPLE, which will show after the 1260days/years which is the end time Adventist firmly believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, that Jesus is our only savior, a true God who became man just to save us! Adventists firmly believe that we are God’s commandment keeping people, not perfect but saved by the Grace of God, believing that God’s church(people) has a prophet, pastors, evamgelists, teachers, church elders, deacons and many many more,. I was not born in an adventist home , I went on in Ang dating daan, InC, and other churches but have not found the truth in them, and I firmly believe that the SDA’s are teaching the truth although Adventists are not perfect and there are members who are not showing a Christ like character, love, and care. God bless
OBIDOS:
I respect your show of wishful thinking and your wildest dreams! Like what I said before, this mantra is just existing in the SDAs brainwashed mind, not in the real world! The SDAs know about John 14:6 like I used to, but in a distorted way. I realized that the SDAs formula of salvation is cultic and it goes like this:
SDA cult: FAITH+WORKS = SALVATION (CULTIC)
BIBLE: FAITH+SALVATION = WORKS (CHRISTIAN)
I used to be a dreamer like them for 24 hours until such time that I realized that this is just a dream while my eyes are closed. But when the Lord by His grace opened my blinded eyes He awakened me from my dream or rather, a nightmare! I praise God for His unconditional love for me. For setting me free from the SDA cult. I pray that friends and relatives who are still there that God may also show them mercy and be saved from the bondage and shackles of spiritual darkness!
As regards the so-called 1260 days and Revelation 12:17 I’m preparing a very interesting Bible Study Guide for SDAs about it by next week. To God be the glory!
Endnotes:
[i] Here is the link https://backtothescriptures.today/true-is-not-truth-reaction-sa-wishful-thinking-ni-israel-villaver-at-mga-die-hard-sda/
[ii] Fortin, Denis, and Jerry Moon (2014). The Ellen G. White Encyclopedia (p. 1102). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
[iii] Horn, S. H. (1979). In The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Dictionary (p. 205). Review and Herald Publishing Association.
[iv] One irrefutable false prophecy of Ellen White is the is the famous Camden Vision of 1851. The White Estate Inc. made an official statement as a response to this controversial issue. I offered a response on this is my article on this link https://backtothescriptures.today/ellen-whites-false-prophecy1-the-1851-camden-vision-1844-close-of-probation-english-edition/
[v] Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1980). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 6, p. 400). Review and Herald Publishing Association
[vi] Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar. Zondervan Academic, 2019. Olive Tree Bible Software.
[vii] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/28_Fundamental_Beliefs
[viii] https://backtothescriptures.today/a-short-qa-session-with-an-aspiring-adventist-defender/
[ix] https://backtothescriptures.today/true-is-not-truth-reaction-sa-wishful-thinking-ni-israel-villaver-at-mga-die-hard-sda/
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